Yesterday’s post about Snowden seemed be controversial (although I didn’t intend for it to be.)
So now I’m curious: if you take him as a personality out of the equation, do you think it’s ever ok to leak information about what you suspect are super shady activities, either as an employee of the government, or of a corporation?
Are there conditions that make it justified? What would “super shady” mean for you? As I was writing this post, I came across this news item about Google employees fired for whistleblowing recently as well - additional food for thought.
Interesting you phrased the question that way. I would have asked "Is whistleblowing ever *not* OK?" If we've decided that government is *for the people*, shouldn't we know what they're up to? And for private companies, if they're breaking the law, shouldn't that come to light?
Are there cases people shouldn’t know what the government is doing? Is whistleblowing only acceptable if companies are breaking the law? What it’s more vague? ( I’m being a little difficult here but what I’m trying to get is at that boundary that determines when something is wrong enough to act on)
I can't think of any cases were people shouldn't know what their government is doing. There are cases where soldiers and Marines might die if x was public, and you'd be tempted to say those things should be secret. I'd argue that those things shouldn't have been allowed in the first place.
As for private companies, Anonyboe makes a good case with the Boeing incident that some whistleblowing, even when laws aren't being broken, would be a good thing.
When is something wrong enough to act on? I think this is the engineer in you wanting a convenient conditional. This is more social than science, and probably impossible to answer.
I think the Boeing 737 Max incident is a pretty good proof that more whistleblowing should be acceptable (saying this as a newish Boeing employee via an acquisition this year).
Yes, whistleblowing is an acceptable and long American tradition that has led to important reforms in the past.
I think the problem with Snowden is that while he has certainly positioned himself as a "whistleblower," that's not exactly what he did. He pursued a strategy of surreptitiously collecting sensitive data, software and communications for a very long time (two years, no?), and then... fled the country. And where did he go? Directly to *China.* Where'd he go after that? To Russia! That's not "whistleblowing." That's something else.
To believe that Snowden is not an agent of Russian (or, perhaps at one point, Chinese) intelligence beggars belief at this point. Perhaps he was just recruited by a foreign agency - that, too, has a long history in American intelligence. And perhaps he wasn't, and he just made a really bad mistake and now has no option but to stay in Russia or face a trial. Simply keeping him safe there - with internet access - scores Russia propaganda points all across the board. But it would be very naive to believe that Russian/Chinese intel hasn't plumbed him for all of the information he brought with him.
And he said as much in the book,that the FSB came to meet
him in Sheremetyevo to see if he would collaborate and he refused (whether you believe that he did cooperate with them is based entirely on your thinking about his intent)
It's also based on assumptions about his safety. Whether Snowden is being "protected" or "held captive" by Russia, or something in between, is impossible for a layman like me to know. I simply think that whatever Snowden says while a "guest" of the FSB (which, in any case, is what he is while on Russian soil) has to be interpreted critically given the circumstances.
A wise person once said, "a good name is rather to be chosen than great riches." Seems best to decide what you'll choose ahead of time, because in the moment it's easy to justify letting things slide because "I've got to feed my family."
I'm flabbergasted, especially at this political moment, by this question.
If you see someone doing something morally wrong, you have a moral obligation to report it. "I was just following orders" hasn't cut it since Nuremberg.
then that should have been the question. But it's not, because it's self-evidently not answerable in the general case without simply becoming "what is the Good" and we have been iterating on that for a couple millennia.
But ok, I'll bite. What is morally wrong is violating consent. Surveil me without my express consent, and that is Wrong.
That it is commonplace is not evidence that it is something other than Wrong, but evidence that our industry designs and builds the grinding discs of a great global dystopia, still unfolding.
On one hand, it's always good to know if the gov or companies are doing bad with our data, but I don't know if at the end of the day it's solving something or if this should have a limit.
Ex: If some journalist of "big jorna" got the list of "US Infiltered Assets overseas", should this journalist disclosure this or not?
Absolutely it's okay! I think of myself has having commitments to work in the interests of different parties - sometimes I'm working in my own interests, sometimes that of my family, my employer, my nation, etc. These interests compete. As far as I'm concerned, whistleblowing is just saying "I hold one obligation higher than another, and one of these parties I have obligations to [the government, in Snowden's case] is working against another [the American people]"
Interesting you phrased the question that way. I would have asked "Is whistleblowing ever *not* OK?" If we've decided that government is *for the people*, shouldn't we know what they're up to? And for private companies, if they're breaking the law, shouldn't that come to light?
Are there cases people shouldn’t know what the government is doing? Is whistleblowing only acceptable if companies are breaking the law? What it’s more vague? ( I’m being a little difficult here but what I’m trying to get is at that boundary that determines when something is wrong enough to act on)
I can't think of any cases were people shouldn't know what their government is doing. There are cases where soldiers and Marines might die if x was public, and you'd be tempted to say those things should be secret. I'd argue that those things shouldn't have been allowed in the first place.
As for private companies, Anonyboe makes a good case with the Boeing incident that some whistleblowing, even when laws aren't being broken, would be a good thing.
When is something wrong enough to act on? I think this is the engineer in you wanting a convenient conditional. This is more social than science, and probably impossible to answer.
I think the Boeing 737 Max incident is a pretty good proof that more whistleblowing should be acceptable (saying this as a newish Boeing employee via an acquisition this year).
Yes, whistleblowing is an acceptable and long American tradition that has led to important reforms in the past.
I think the problem with Snowden is that while he has certainly positioned himself as a "whistleblower," that's not exactly what he did. He pursued a strategy of surreptitiously collecting sensitive data, software and communications for a very long time (two years, no?), and then... fled the country. And where did he go? Directly to *China.* Where'd he go after that? To Russia! That's not "whistleblowing." That's something else.
To believe that Snowden is not an agent of Russian (or, perhaps at one point, Chinese) intelligence beggars belief at this point. Perhaps he was just recruited by a foreign agency - that, too, has a long history in American intelligence. And perhaps he wasn't, and he just made a really bad mistake and now has no option but to stay in Russia or face a trial. Simply keeping him safe there - with internet access - scores Russia propaganda points all across the board. But it would be very naive to believe that Russian/Chinese intel hasn't plumbed him for all of the information he brought with him.
And he said as much in the book,that the FSB came to meet
him in Sheremetyevo to see if he would collaborate and he refused (whether you believe that he did cooperate with them is based entirely on your thinking about his intent)
It's also based on assumptions about his safety. Whether Snowden is being "protected" or "held captive" by Russia, or something in between, is impossible for a layman like me to know. I simply think that whatever Snowden says while a "guest" of the FSB (which, in any case, is what he is while on Russian soil) has to be interpreted critically given the circumstances.
A wise person once said, "a good name is rather to be chosen than great riches." Seems best to decide what you'll choose ahead of time, because in the moment it's easy to justify letting things slide because "I've got to feed my family."
I'm flabbergasted, especially at this political moment, by this question.
If you see someone doing something morally wrong, you have a moral obligation to report it. "I was just following orders" hasn't cut it since Nuremberg.
That’s fair, but I’m very interested in the gray area: what counts as “morally wrong” with respect to a company or government?
then that should have been the question. But it's not, because it's self-evidently not answerable in the general case without simply becoming "what is the Good" and we have been iterating on that for a couple millennia.
But ok, I'll bite. What is morally wrong is violating consent. Surveil me without my express consent, and that is Wrong.
That it is commonplace is not evidence that it is something other than Wrong, but evidence that our industry designs and builds the grinding discs of a great global dystopia, still unfolding.
Mixed feelings here.
On one hand, it's always good to know if the gov or companies are doing bad with our data, but I don't know if at the end of the day it's solving something or if this should have a limit.
Ex: If some journalist of "big jorna" got the list of "US Infiltered Assets overseas", should this journalist disclosure this or not?
But it's a good topic.
Absolutely it's okay! I think of myself has having commitments to work in the interests of different parties - sometimes I'm working in my own interests, sometimes that of my family, my employer, my nation, etc. These interests compete. As far as I'm concerned, whistleblowing is just saying "I hold one obligation higher than another, and one of these parties I have obligations to [the government, in Snowden's case] is working against another [the American people]"